New Terms at Fulltilt - your players have only 60 days to deposit

[TheDonk]

Originally Posted by Ridge

I'm sorry to say that most of us pulling FT off our sites will do little good. The only way we can have an impact is if we have some sort of good press on this. There isn't a "Poker Affiliate Programs" magazine that I know of. It's past time for us to start one though. This is a case of us getting a raw deal, but again I doubt we will be able to do anything about it.

As for pulling them off our sites, I remember during the AP scandal there were tons of affiliates on this forum that swore they would never market AP again.. After the initial spotlight was lifted, many of those same affiliates had their reviews and banners back up. I suspect it may be the same with this situation.

I've never had much to say about Fulltilt, I'm not a big fan of their site or their program so this isn't going to affect me as much as many of you. Overall though, I think we may start to see more of this from other rooms and that will be a huge issue.

What type of "good press" are you talking about? I don't understand.

This is a totally different issue than the AP issue. We're now talking about marketing a site, and getting paid even less than we were to begin with. This is the collapse of what used to be a great program. Really there isn't anything that these two situations have in common. Continuing to market them is definately not the way to tell them you're pissed off, and definately not the way to get things changed. The only way they lose anything is for us to stop sending them players, send your players elsewhere.

If you don't want other rooms to follow, do something to protect our industry. Don't market the rooms that screw us, market the ones who take care of us. It's really a simple decision, and one that we all need to make if we want to protect our future in this business.

[PPP]

Apparently this has always been in the terms and conditions so they aren't screwing anyone. Everyone has already agreed to it.

The reaction should not be to "screw" or otherwise attack anyone. The reaction should be, if you don't like the terms, do not promote them. This is especially true if you think there is even a one in a thousand chance of persuading them to change their actions.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by PPP

Apparently this has always been in the terms and conditions so they aren't screwing anyone. Everyone has already agreed to it.

The reaction should not be to "screw" or otherwise attack anyone. The reaction should be, if you don't like the terms, do not promote them. This is especially true if you think there is even a one in a thousand chance of persuading them to change their actions.

Where in their terms does it say that they will make players regret signing up from an affiliate website and try to give us a bad name? Have you even looked at the thread at 2+2? There are bigger issues than just the 60 day thing. This will have an affect on any big player you currently have there as they will now be pissed that everyone else is getting rakeback and they cannot because they signed up through an affiliate.

[TheDonk]

A discussion about which term is correct doesn't matter. Just because they had a 'we'll screw you later' clause in their t&c's doesn't make it less than screwing us. We all understand what is fair and what is not, let's not argue the use of a single word.

[SEO]

It's going to be interesting to see how Full Tilt reviews will change in near future. We'll see how many really like the room and recommend it to their visitors vs. how many just wanted to make money and recommended it to their visitors.

I guess it's still going to be hard to say anything bad about Full Tilt as far as playability goes.

[corpfan1]

We can't really go by their TERMS here...because I am sure every program has something in their terms that says they have the right to terminate an account based on their DISCRETION at any time.

[kaus]

Edmc is creating accounts again if you notice any off posts or those targeted at Jeremy please PM a mod.

[PPP]

Originally Posted by Graham

Where in their terms does it say that they will make players regret signing up from an affiliate website and try to give us a bad name? Have you even looked at the thread at 2+2? There are bigger issues than just the 60 day thing. This will have an affect on any big player you currently have there as they will now be pissed that everyone else is getting rakeback and they cannot because they signed up through an affiliate.

That's just the issue of rakeback, and a reason not to do business with any site offering rakeback. Rakeback has been an idiotic concept perpetuated by cardrooms that do poorly because they have lousy business models. The reason to be pissed at Full Tilt is because they have allowed new players to get rakeback, but never had a way for existing ones to get it, and for every other discrepency and unlevel playing field that comes with this half assed, uncoordinated approach to incentives.

Just freaking cut the rake 27% if you want to, don't create an environment of bad feelings, poaching, cheating and unfair advantage.

===
And I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is all about the terms... they and other cardrooms have in their terms they can change the terms anyway they want, any time they want -- and we agree to that, so let's not pretend otherwise. Being on MGR is an extreme risk. First, don't do business with cardrooms with awful terms, unless you can make an arrangement where you aren't subject to them; second, don't make choices to be extra vulnerable when they CAN make changes at will.

[scottmc]

Originally Posted by PPP

Apparently this has always been in the terms and conditions so they aren't screwing anyone. Everyone has already agreed to it.

The reaction should not be to "screw" or otherwise attack anyone. The reaction should be, if you don't like the terms, do not promote them. This is especially true if you think there is even a one in a thousand chance of persuading them to change their actions.

If you want to get technical then by their conduct of not enforcing the rule they have created what is known as the legal concept of equitable estoppel. If it ever went to court, which it won't, Full Tilt would lose on these grounds. To say that an unenforced term and condition can be arbitrarily reintroduced is wrong ethically and legally and is rightly called a screwing.

For more see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel

[scottmc]

Originally Posted by PPP

Just freaking cut the rake 27% if you want to, don't create an environment of bad feelings, poaching, cheating and unfair advantage.

Or have psuedo-rakeback as Poker Stars does through their FPP/VPP system.