A Question Of Ethics, Honesty, And How To Do Business In The Affilate World.

[mjmurphy53711]

Hi all, this may be my last post on PAP depending on how I guage the communities response....I simply am not having much luck here.


I was approached by a well known member here on PAP with an offer to sell me a banner ad on his website. I agreed to the terms and paid a 50% deposit to reserve the space for April 15th.

Then a few days later, I was approached with a second offer I found more appealing, for the same price, but a better placement in the form of a full page and a Tab/Menu icon on the website.

I IMMEDIATLY wanted to drop my banner reservation and just sign up for that as I found it a better value, but I felt "the right thing to do" was take both for one month since I had appreciation for the offer and I have integrity and am a man of my word (read - I don't back out of verbal contracts)

I agreed to the terms and we agreed to a start date of April 15th.

A few days prior to April 15th, I was messaged on Skype asking if it would be okay to pay upfront for the second offer because this person was having a difficulty with a mortgage.

Okay, no problem - Usual terms are to pay up front anyways, I paid instantly.

Enter April 15th - I messaged this person to get the banner up, didn't hear back from him.......this was no problem because the later the program started the better for me due to some programming issues on my site.

April 16th - I heard back, he needed "time" to write the page, take a screenshot, and make it "asthetically" appealing, again, no problem.....I'm all for good business. At least the banner went up.

April 17th - Seller backs out of the offer as he sold it for a higher price to someone else.

Seller thinks that refunding the money makes this ok, and literally thinks he is doing the right thing "by coming to me like a man about it and not ignoring me on skype forever and disappearing" (actual quotes).

Now, I am admittedly new to this business - but I am not new to the business world (While small potatoes to some of you, I do about $500,000 gross business a year in a flooring business that I own locally).

Being in the offline world of business I've dealt with many situations, but if I have learned one thing,, a verbal contract is binding, especially one that is actually a "written proposal" via skype with a paper trail of being paid for on Paypal in full, in advance.

Is this an acceptable, standard way of doing business here?

It's way to small of potatoes for me to think about sueing, (slam dunk case imo he would have to honor the one month term, even though it was implied that it would be ongoing).

I won't name the person here.

I won't name their website, I don't believe it is "ethical" to do that, and certainly wouldn't reflect well on me.

This is not a crying post, but it is frustrating to me as I have not been able to secure many good places to expose myself and my new venture......so I really just want to know:

A. Does this happen a lot?

B. Would you do this to someone?

I look at it like this, I like doing honest business. If it was me in his shoes, I would have came to me "like a man" and talked to me about it, not just ship a refund and think I did the right thing. Who knows, I may have agreed to higher terms! (Not likely, but still.)

I would offer the term that was agreed to, and indicate that the other was no longer good after the first 30 days that were prepaid for, simple as that.

To me, that is the honest way of doing business.

In my flooring business, I put bids on paper: they are legally binding but I put an expiration on them.

There has been times in life I had to honor a $7,000 dollar contract that cost me $3,500 in materials when quoted, but $7,000 when the price of a certain exotic flooring species doubled.

I did not try to find a way out of the contract, you know what I did?

I honored the contract, worked for free and lost the money that my employees wages cost (about $900).

My end result was $-900 for doing the right thing, and +$ exponential amounts for all the future referrals I got from this contract. Sometimes, the cost of business isn't what you think it will be, you live, learn, and try to use the lessons as a path to future success.

What I found especially gross about this situation, is, if you found that you undersold yourself on a spot on a website - This is a digital world, you simply add another space and renogiate at the end of the term.

I'm frustrated for reasons outside of this PAP, both personally and re: my venture. For that reason, I'm seeking a bit of experienced knowledge here:

Is this common? I know its a cutthroat world in poker.

Do I need to have my father (who happens to be a lawyer) draft actual contracts to avoid this in the future?

I realize I am a new person here, and I have a big mouth when I shouldn't sometimes on this board - But I am passionate about what I do, and what I enjoy.

In my "real" business world, I would never take something like this public.....but I also don't have forums and communities to participate in in that world, so I'm unfamiliar with potential ramifications of being someone who airs dirty laundry.

Those that know me, even some of you here: Know that the one single goal I have both in dealing with my players and with other affiliates, is to do it honestly, with integrity, and with passion.

Possibly the post that sends me to lurk mode here (still lots to read / learn) and potentially a post that will close doors with some of you in the future that may or may not be vested with this person: I

If that is the case I will close shop and move on (not really, but stick to my typical offline promotions), I have a family and a secure place in my brick and mortar business but: I love poker and had visions of fostering good relationships here.

I've been scammed on this site, I've been squeezed and fished on this site, and I have also found a couple of tremendously generous and helpful people on this site.....it's at a bit of a crossroads with me.

Thank you all for the read, consider it outside of this single incidence and accept it as my evaluating my potential place in this market.

Status: I told this person exactly what I thought of the way he did business, and not nicely, and not only did he drop the second offer....he also had removed the banner which I found odd as it was not in any way related to the backing out of the second deal. Money was refunded.

Regards,

Mike

[the27offsuit.com]

To be honest i didnt read the whole post , only the first half , But from what i got from it , you bought banner space from someone , paid for it and it was to start on the 15th , he backed out a few days after the 15th because someone paid more for the space and refunded your money .

If this is correct then he was wrong , and most people on here are good for the word and honor deas they make ., you just hooked up with a bad apple

[hoursurfing]

Agree with 27. Not a big deal since nothing was truly lost. Most people honor their word but in this business always cover your ass. Hell he could've not even owned the site and ran with your money.

You don't want to be doing business with someone like that anyways.

Disclaimer: I also scanned that novel :P

[gooderpoker]

Im a man of my word. If it were me I would not have done this but I sell all my banner space cheap. And I always make deals for members that buy more than one of my sites. If I sell something its sold until the Time period is up. Same goes for the buyer once you agree to a deal you can not back out.
To do that is a lil bit of a kick in the nuts but Some ppl do this just to get a few more $$$ rather than comply with the current deal

[Kyle]

You are right it's an ethics question and some will take the extra $ in a second and think nothing of it, others would tell the new buyer there are no slots left. Just forget it and move on, because dealing internationally you will come across very different ethical backgrounds.

It's common in the sense that someone would take the extra $. It's uncommon in the sense that you got sniped like that for an ad spot, but I have seen this many times with website purchases. I myself have actually been offered thousands to override an auction winner at sitepoint.

[PPP]

Some people think that the reason to make a deal on the 13th that starts on the 15th is so you can have two days to hustle and try and make a different deal at a better price. These are desperate losers who go out of business soon enough, but they are replaced by other losers and the cycle continues.

The online world just has more of this than the b&m one does, but its basically the same everywhere.

[Rakefreeze]

If this bothers you that much you are most certainly in the wrong business. The guy was wrong, but it is nothing compared to what has happened, and what is very likely to happen within the industry in the future.

You really have to take a lot of it with a grain of salt. For example, I hired someone I trusted to redesign my site many months ago. Long story short, I am writing off many thousands I paid this loser and all the lost business from not moving forward.

On the other hand, through this site I hired an SEO consultant and this person has been great. You either accept that it will happen and try to minimize it or let it drive you crazy.

[ThePokerBank]

Yeah, I read through the whole thing, and the person who went back on their deal was in the wrong. But unfortunately, these kind of things do pop up in the affiliate industry. I think it's more rife online than it would be in real life because you are not face to face with anyone. It's easier to cut off a deal or go back on your word if you can just IM someone. It's definitely frustrating, but there are a lot of good guys out there, but obviously you need to be careful.

If you get this frustrated after such a small situation like this, I don't know how you are going to react to future problems. On the grand scheme of things, this event is nothing. People lose thousands after getting screwed over, and you haven't lost anything.

Count yourself lucky that you got off cheap when learning a lesson on how to be careful when dealing with people in the affiliate business.

[mjmurphy53711]

As I hinted at it has just been a rough week personally, and in my short time on this site I've been screwed more than once. It is good to see many of you do honest business.

Mostly this post is directed at the individual without honor or ethics.

Using a fake deal with me as a pretext to get a stranger to bail you out of a finiancial crisis is the bottom of the barrel.

You are well know and liked here bud, and you are lucky I just am not the type to call you out and post proof, even though others should probably be warned and refrain from doing business with you, I'm quite sure you would only screw over the new guy.

Thanks all for posting your agreement I am sure its been read by the person who needs to read it most.

Anyone looking to strike an honest deal with a rb provider let me know.

[Marcelo]

Murphy,

I am greatful that you didn't lose a lot of money from this person, so you should take it as a lesson. The great thing about PAW/PAP is that you CAN find honest people here to work with, and make great partnerships. In my opinion, deals are deals.

Recently I sold an AD for 6 months on my homepage and later realized that it would show site-wide. I kept the pricing for the first six months, even knowing that I could charge more.

This should be the standard.