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Old 05-06-2008, 07:25 AM
Beanie Beanie is offline
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Default How to fix rakeback

I clearly like pain

The problems that exist with rakeback these days are different than the problems that used to exist. A lot of that is due to us policing ourselves. But there comes a point where the card rooms will need to jump in and do something to fix the leaks in the foundation (however few they may be these days). Many of these I went over in the podcast. Some didn't come up in the show.

1 (I could have actually stopped hear and covered most of the conversation). For the older bigger sites that allow rakeback you are going to need to bite the bullet. I think what FTP is doing with rakebackpros is good but it is just missing one crucial element. Allow affiliates to submit players and receive a small percentage (anything less than 3% and they will just sell the players on another room, maybe that percentage can be promo money, there needs to be something). And by the way, go ahead and have an in house rakeback program (I know rakebackpros isn't), that way you have a solution for the players that need this service. Let's be honest when a player hears about rakeback they are going to want it. If you are going to allow it and you should because sometimes price is the best way to convert a player then at least protect yourselves and have every possible solution so you don't have unhappy customers (when you can, obviously this is imperfect but it is more on than off). If you need help with any part of this ASK THE AFFILIATES.

2. All rakeback should be automated (daily is best, weekly is OK). This won't just help rakeback operators it will help your customer service departments that field a lot of questions like "do you have any idea when XYZ pays rakeback?". It also has the added effect of having affiliates focus on getting customers.

3. Stop allowing websites to compete with you on price. You see it all the time on 2+2. If a website advertises on a website that you advertise on they should not have a better deal than you do. I think you can also put "clearing of the cookies issue here", stop allowing websites to have that on their sites. A simple rule should go like this, if we can't do it, you shouldn't.

I might even go a step further and say that there should be no advertising. I have proven this method can and does work, most of what people are spending is pure ego anyway. Now if they can generate traffic to their site, that is OK. Simply put the player needs to be looking for it not grabbed kicking and screaming like the flashing "come here and get a WSOP seat and a Maserati" are intended to do.

4. Take a cue from smaller websites and give smaller affiliates the chance to get into rakeback. Competition is good for you not bad. With the automated rakeback the issue of smaller affiliates stiffing players goes away. You don't need to start them at the mack daddy percentage but starting them lower than the cap allowed by the rooms forces them to go to bigger affiliates, thereby feeding the giant and making this situation worse.

Some other points.

You bigger rooms need to understand that the reason why a lot of these smaller rooms are catching up to you is because a new customer can get rakeback at those places. When you don't allow a player benefits that they know exist for other players you mine as well just kick them in the ass right out of the door. I know the issue is complicated but let me make it simple, do away with MGR that is non rakeback. I know this is controversial but let's get real, it is just getting in the way. Make affiliates pick between MGR, CPA and Advertising. If you are going to still allow MGR at least allow those affiliates some level of protection so they can offer rakeback if a customer so chooses. This might require a little thinking on their end and yours but this is not rocket science. If they don't want to give your customer something that is being openly offered everywhere then that is their prerogative but it is also the customers prerogative to leave the site and go elsewhere where they can get it.

Rake Races:

Where do I start. Promotions are obviously needed to energize a customer base, so I get that completely and on there own once every say 4-6 months they can do that. Doing them every month is just circumventing the caps that most of the big rakeback operators asked you to put in place to protect them from the price gougers. Guess what, they figured out they were their worst enemies. I have no problems with sites allowing rake races but why do you need to subsidize their senseless promo that does nothing but circumvent the caps? If they want to do it, it should be their money. In fact, if rake races are so great (they aren't btw) just have the site do them. Don't get me wrong, promos are good and I think they are important in our relationship and obviously some of the big guys get special priviledges, I get that. But a promo should be special, rake races are not special when they are done every month.
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:15 AM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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I agree with everything you say here, and long before talking to you about it had already decided in my mind that if there is a future for me in affiliating it probably lies in working with good rooms, good players, and being happy with 5% or so.

The problem though is until the room adopt this, a small guy like me literally has to compete on price which is an oxymoron because price competition would eventually choke the whole industry down to 1% or less if not stopped at the roots.

People like RakeTheRake have made it possible to do anything but compete on price, at least for me just starting out.

Obviously, if I can get back into the circuit and deal with mostly live players this issue isn't so much there but if I am trying to get players via serps than it is.

Good post, I personally think it is fairly obvious that most if not all rooms will adopt an in house loyalty/rakeback/comp program at some point and I hope to learn enough about this business to be able to grab that plan and run with it.

I think everything you have outlined in this points translated to happy poker rooms, happy players, and happy affiliates.

Win, win, and win.
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:18 AM
PartnerNordica.com PartnerNordica.com is offline
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Def. some good points you make.

In regards to:

2. All rakeback should be automated (daily is best, weekly is OK). This won't just help rakeback operators it will help your customer service departments that field a lot of questions like "do you have any idea when XYZ pays rakeback?". It also has the added effect of having affiliates focus on getting customers.

Daily rakeback is great if the network or poker room is on a fixed RB %. However when they offer a tier % you really have to use the monthly model.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:23 PM
Beanie Beanie is offline
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why is that? I mean the affiliate doesn't get paid daily, just the player.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:24 PM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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because its set at how many many hands/points/mgr a month on the tiered programs.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:27 PM
Beanie Beanie is offline
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oh, who does that? Let them administer it then.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:30 PM
ResIpsa ResIpsa is offline
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even w/ that kind of teired system, you can still have the player paid daily at the base rate and then a monthly "bonus" payment for hitting the higher tier.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:31 PM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
oh, who does that? Let them administer it then.
Ladbrokes is one example. or if you were to consider pokerstars vip program an "in house" rakeback then that would be tiered monthly as well.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:33 PM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResIpsa View Post
even w/ that kind of teired system, you can still have the player paid daily at the base rate and then a monthly "bonus" payment for hitting the higher tier.
i agree good point, because getting the rb in the hands of the players on the site they earned it on is good for everyone.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:37 PM
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They could also using a 30 day average instead of a monthly cycle. So your rakeback percentage is based on the average hands/points/mgr (or what ever formula they use) for the last 30 days. So on day 122, it calculates the avergae between day 92 and day 122. That sets your rakeback rate for the day 123. Repeat the process each day. No reason why this cannot be fully automated.
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