The Bonus Code Debate...

[kaus]

Originally Posted by PokerProp

I'm in the business of finding players the best deals.

And I do the same except I show them areas that might appeal to them from one room to the next and eventually when I am in a position to be able to offer them an even better deal I will, but right now I capatilize on what is in front of me because that is what I can as a smaller affiliate offer right now. I dont have a xxxxx+ budget to do otherwise

Originally Posted by PokerProp

Perhaps I'm blinded but i really have not seen an argument yet that suggest what I do worst then sites optimizing for PokerStars Marketing Code - or Full Tilt Referral Code - or Something Coupon Code. These are terms players only become familiar with during registration.

Someone naturally thinks hey let me search and see if Poker SIteXYZ is available. Players don't naturally search and say let me see if there is any good PokerStars Marketing Code, unless another website (which deserved the credit) or the sign up form informs them of the term.

I will partially agree to this because the fault in this one lies with the cardroom, and if they didnt encourage it they wouldnt make it available would they? Now some like Bodog have some pretty strong standards on what you can do and what you cant do, and I think if any room is on the right track I think its them. They dont put up with bullshit, I would say they dont bend the rules but you and I both know that BS. but in regards to how you promote their room they are on the ball.

Originally Posted by PokerProp

IMO sites that optimize for Site XYZ code are working hard to do nothing more than steal players. They're either stealing them from the room as a player is about to sign up, or there stealing them from the affiliate who referred them to the room.

I'm mostly talking about bonus code abuse. I use bonus codes where I feel it will help me better convert players and I don't see nothing wrong with sites using them properly, i might even rank for a few of the smaller ones (naturally - not forced), not sure if I do or not but if so its probably not top 3 but anyways, Its the sites that optimize and go out of there way to rank for these terms, that I personally feel are doing nothing more in this instance than stealing players.

and do rakeback affiliates not go out of their way to optimize for particular keywords. Last I checked the people on the top 20 list for the most widely searched rakeback terms are not there based on natural rankings alone. They are buying links or some form of advertising, using multiple variations of the keywords in their linking and targetting their pages for those terms. I dont know about you but I dont see many content links sold for the purpose of driving traffic from one site to the next.

Do rakeback affiliates not optimize their pages for targetted terms? These are not just natural things you do when writing a piece of content, each piece of content targets something. So if that affiliate was just trying to get natural rankings than why need to optimize it specifically for that term? Why not just throw the page up and let it do its job? Why wouldnt they get a link saying " Rakeback site offers 37% rakeback at XYZroom"? Because it's no where near as good as XYZ rakeback, is it? Because they want to get to the front page of google just like everybody else...so when a player comes along and finds out that such and such a site is offering rakeback they will google XYZrakeback and find that site right off the bat. Key sentance here - the player searches.

Every affiliate is targetting something and optimizing their pages to out do the competition, be it bonus or rakeback. Show me a rakeback site in the top 20 that has not forced that ranking. If they didnt want to go out of their way to rank then they would not be doing the things that they do and that is targetting a phrase that they know players are looking for.

With the pokerstars issue, what made it stupid was the company could not decide on what the rules should be first before letting the affiliates go out and play. No different with Full Tilt and Party. That is where the error started, allowing affiliatres to push the envelope and seriously market it. Not all affiliates just use the marketing code though, there is still plenty of things they can use about the room that may take a player from Full Tilt and get them to play at stars instead. But like you I have something to offer them - your being rakeback and mine being the bonus.

Both systems are severly flawed but I do think rakeback and bonus affiliates are at the same level. A player does not just clue in and think shit I am going to search best fulltilt rakeback for nothing. You cant tell me that they havent heard of the room, havent clicked a link or banner, that the marketing from the poker room hasnt influenced them.


and lol donk....I love these conversations and I think this is the longest post I have ever made....

[kaus]

Just to add my most popular pages are not always a bonus code they are pages where I show players you can have this or you can have that and this is why its better. I take things that I think the average player would like to know and show them both sides of the subject. Its not just about the bonus although this does give me an advantage in some cases.

If the cardrooms also offered rakeback within the company thus becoming your competitor would you still market rakeback?

[PokerProp]

I feel as if my point is being entirely missed..
First of all to preference this is a heated subject to some so anything I'm debating is limited to this thread, If I end up quoting someone or w/e it not a direct shot at them, as in emotion / debate leaves when thread closes.

What I am trying to say has nothing to do with business model of rakeback vs non rakeback. It does have to do with poker rooms allowing us to SEO terms for thier rooms.

People who say they are trying to appeal to players by SEOing Full Tilt Referral Code, Poker Stars Marketing Code, Carbon Poker Coupon code, all sorts of other funky and unnatural ways poker rooms say Bonus code are clearly going out of there way to capture players who are on the registration form and see this item. They finding ways to appeal to these players? its finding ways to steal these players.

It disturbs me that sites provide a method for affiliate to steal from each other.

Also further to my point, which was a sub issue to me, but obvious is predominant to others is that: in the rakeback business players MUST use and affiliate - so its obviously natural for players to go searching for one and finding out what is available. To me this is competing with one another, not stealing from one another.

As far as having rakeback affiliate compete against non rakeback affiliate: I don't understand the concept one bit. Take Full Tilt for example players can get 100% sign up bonus up to $600 with bonus affiliate - or they can chose 100% sign up bonus AND 27% rakeback with a rakeback affiliate. Same with Cake Poker - everything offered AND 33% rakeback. Same with Betfair, Same with Paradise, Same with Sun Poker - could go on and on. The argument that bonus is more appealing certain players is a head scratcher it makes no sense - in most cases players going through rakeback sites get BOTH! I'm not arguing this point though I personally thinks its foolish sites do this this. I admire site like Poker Stars and Party Poker who avoided this. Honestly if I ever desired to work a job (i won't so its just hypothetical) I would stalk poker stars till they hired me or had me arrested for stalking

[PokerProp]

Originally Posted by kaus

If the cardrooms also offered rakeback within the company thus becoming your competitor would you still market rakeback?

They do offer rakeback. I have agreements individually with each poker room I promote and the ones that I promote for rakeback are ones in which the agreement states these rooms will pay my players rakeback. Half the rooms I promote now: they contacted me and presented the offer to me, asking to be add their room and rakeback offer to my website in exchange for... Actually i think its more than half. The only ones I can recall contacting on my own were Full Tilt , Sun Poker and Poker Kings. the others I previously had contacted I've since dropped.
So seeing as I'm not paying the players, its the poker rooms offering the rakeback not me right? I'm just presenting players with their offers they came to me asking me to promote.

[kaus]

lol at stalking...we will alert Carly for furture refrence. I see your point but you cant say that bonus affiliates are the only ones "stealing" as you put it.

How is telling a player to delete cookies not stealing? Telling them to uninstall software? Or to email the rakeback provider if they have never made a real money deposit. I read all the time on forums where players post saying I just signed up at Full Tilt last month but I havent made a deposit can I get rakeback...answer is email so and so and they will hook you up. Obviously these players belong to somebody be it an affiliate or a cardroom. Although things I may do may seem wrong its what card rooms provide us with just like they allow you to do certain things .


Obv no offense...to anyone. We should be able to discuss this kind of stuff without taking things to personal.

[kaus]

Originally Posted by PokerProp

They do offer rakeback. I have agreements individually with each poker room I promote and the ones that I promote for rakeback are ones in which the agreement states these rooms will pay my players rakeback. Half the rooms I promote now: they contacted me and presented the offer to me, asking to be add their room and rakeback offer to my website in exchange for... Actually i think its more than half. The only ones I can recall contacting on my own were Full Tilt , Sun Poker and Poker Kings. the others I previously had contacted I've since dropped.
So seeing as I'm not paying the players, its the poker rooms offering the rakeback not me right? I'm just presenting players with their offers they came to me asking me to promote.

I meant if the room publicly advertised that they were providing an inhouse rakeback system while still allowing you to send players with yours. Not just you because I know not everyone has these deals and many pay the players themselves. But if you ended up in a situation where you had to compete with the poker room specifically for rakeback such as we do with bonuses, and the poker room told players upon signup that they could get it...would you pack up and leave or would you continue to target players who would be searching for those terms, even though those terms were a result of the player being informed by the poker room.

[mjmurphy53711]

Originally Posted by kaus

I meant if the room publicly advertised that they were providing an inhouse rakeback system while still allowing you to send players with yours. Not just you because I know not everyone has these deals and many pay the players themselves. But if you ended up in a situation where you had to compete with the poker room specifically for rakeback such as we do with bonuses, and the poker room told players upon signup that they could get it...would you pack up and leave or would you continue to target players who would be searching for those terms, even though those terms were a result of the player being informed by the poker room.

I doubt this would happen, but a dream situation and what I think the future of any surviving rakeback is in house programs that pay us 5-15% for providing the player.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by PokerProp

People who say they are trying to appeal to players by SEOing Full Tilt Referral Code, Poker Stars Marketing Code, Carbon Poker Coupon code, all sorts of other funky and unnatural ways poker rooms say Bonus code are clearly going out of there way to capture players who are on the registration form and see this item. They finding ways to appeal to these players? its finding ways to steal these players.

I think the biggest problem is not necessarily that people SEO for these terms... its common sense after all. If you want to make a lot of money, buy a shitload of links for them because the poker sites have made players think they NEED to enter one of these codes when signing up as it will get them something special (which we all know is not true). Can you really blame the affiliates who go after these terms? No, not really. If someone told you you could make a ton of money if you ranked for xxx bonus code, wouldn't you try?

The real problems are these:
- Having codes that override cookies - which leads to affiliates poaching players from other affiliates. For example if a player clicks on a banner on my site, goes to Pokerstars and sees oh, I need a marketing code now, I am probably gonna lose that player. (Problem with the room)
- Allowing affiliates to use domains with the sites name in it - Do you really think partypokerbonus.com, pokerstarsmarketingcode.com or fulltiltreferralcode.com are really providing any value to the rooms. Again, not a problem with the affiliates, but if the sites are going to allow it, why not give it a shot. (Problem with the room)
- Making players think that if they put these codes in that they will get something special - All affiliate links should be directed to landing pages that show players what bonus they will get and there shouldn't even be an option to enter a code. If the affiliate has multiple offers, these should be listed on the landing page and the player can decide which one they want to go with. (Problem with the room)
- Rewarding affiliates for sending lots of players when all they have really done is SEO for these kind of terms - Much harder to track, but if an affiliate owns pokerstarsmarketingcode.com and sent you 50 players, DONT GIVE THEM A HIGHER CPA!!! (Problem with the room)

I still think codes are good ways to track players, but these should only be offered when a player goes directly to a site without going through an affiliate link. I just think a lot of sites need to look at the process and bring it into the 20th century.

[Graham]

I don't even want to get started with the rakeback thing.... the rooms have it so backwards... this should either be something that can be offered by everyone or nobody and should all be controlled in-house to protect the player. Allowing players to sign-up through one affiliate for a Bonus Code but then not giving them rakeback later will only make those players resent the room and leave (thus hurting both the room and the affiliate).

[kaus]

agreed Graham..this would be a great thing for them to be able to land on.

http://www.bodoglife.com/betting-off...rlistings.html

Include that its the only bonus available, what makes the room great in a quick list and the download button followed by no signup code. But I think all of the rooms would need to stop offering it. Even then I think affiliates would just create a new search term that would relate to a page.