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  #31 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:23 AM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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I don't even want to get started with the rakeback thing.... the rooms have it so backwards... this should either be something that can be offered by everyone or nobody and should all be controlled in-house to protect the player. Allowing players to sign-up through one affiliate for a Bonus Code but then not giving them rakeback later will only make those players resent the room and leave (thus hurting both the room and the affiliate).
loyalty programs are indeed the future
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  #32 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:32 AM
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Graham I agree with you 100% (150% if that was possible).
I don't blame affiliates who do it at all, I seriously never look at a site and say what an asshole their SEOing bonus codes. What I get upset each time I see this is that poker rooms allow this - What I was trying to state is I believe the only reason to have the term Full Tilt Referral Code linked all over your site is to steal players - either from direct sign ups or from other affiliates.

Why does this bother me? I think affiliates who provide the rooms with brand support should be paid more than those who capitalize on their keywords and brand.

I don't refer many players to PokerStars, I have the type of site now where a lot of my visitors know pokerstars. However, I would promote them even if I'm not an affiliate - I play exclusively there. I have no interest in any other site. I'm happy cashing in FPP points for 30" monitors or saving them for concierge or tournament seats. I don't blame PokerStars for not paying me more than they do, I sent them a few players per month (I would guess really good ones, but no way of telling) but I sure bet I make them a lot more than some of the sites that they pay these higher rates to who are just stealing players.
I'm just using Stars as an example: I have no major issue with them on the affiliate end. I'm just saying I strongly believe the method which affiliates get rewarded is messed up.

Another example is Full Tilt. I get 35% MGR with them (no secret everyone knows this is available) but I have to use someone elses account. The reason this is the case was because when I signed up to be an affiliate with them tiers were 20 and 25%. All sorts of sites are offering 27% rakeback. I email them asking what we need to do to get more than 25%. There answer after many emails is that there is no guarantee no matter how much volume I do I'll ever earn more than 25%. Now they have this tier system and with $50K i could earn 35% with my own account. If they had that when I started i'd be way over $50K. I negotiate back and forth with Full TIlt asking for 32% and then 35% when I reach certain tiers. It cost them NOTHING to give this to me. I have a bunch of options now to get 35% using someone else account so its actually a bargain for them. And them doing this for me gives me the ability to market them more effectively and in more languages. The final answer is basically no, good conversations though and I'm sure if the AMs could of given it to me they more than likely would of - so what happens now? Full Tilt still pays someone else 35% and it all comes back to my players and me but meanwhile Full Tilt remains listed #4 or #5 or #8 different places on my sites with no serious push because its not convenient for me to market them.

Meanwhile I got these lesser known rooms who give me these awesome offers and for the life of me I can't figure out why no one signs up at them and I feel bad because there so generous to me and I can't get get any sort of conversions to them.

Very long rant but my issue is that I work hard to send good players to poker rooms and am always coming up with new ideas to do so and meanwhile these rooms have a method in place for my players to be stole by someone else if I don't but in HUGE bold text a bonus code they'll remember.
Oh speaking of that, Yes i do have an issue with PokerStars. They asked me for a choice of a bonus code several weeks ago and then never responded. See that adds to the problem, I still can't even get a real bonus code and I have no plans whatsoever to abuse it
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  #33 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:37 AM
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loyalty programs are indeed the future
Yes, but they should all be run inhouse. Having affiliates run such a crucial part of your business is retarded from a business perspective IMO.
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  #34 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:48 AM
mjmurphy53711 mjmurphy53711 is offline
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Yes, but they should all be run inhouse. Having affiliates run such a crucial part of your business is retarded from a business perspective IMO.
Exactly what I meant.....loyalty programs in house, do away with the term rakeback but offer straight cash loyalty perks as an option to be an equivalent.

CPA or 5-15% for the affiliate.
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  #35 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:55 AM
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Exactly what I meant.....loyalty programs in house, do away with the term rakeback but offer straight cash loyalty perks as an option to be an equivalent.

CPA or 5-15% for the affiliate.
Don't think it will happen... too many of the rooms have gone the rakeback way, and now they can't stop. Esp all the little sites that really have nothing more to offer than a higher than usual rakeback. Unless all online poker sites came to an agreement to abolish rakeback completely (impossible), there will always be some out there that will offer it.
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  #36 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by PokerProp View Post
Graham I agree with you 100% (150% if that was possible).
Thank you, let's try 150 and see how it goes.


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Originally Posted by PokerProp View Post
Why does this bother me? I think affiliates who provide the rooms with brand support should be paid more than those who capitalize on their keywords and brand.
Couldn't agree more with you on this one, but affiliate departments probably have quotas that they have to meet, so at the end of the day they probably don't care how the players are getting signed up. I guess this is probably the fault of upper management putting on pressure to the AMs... who knows, but I think a lot of these issues stem from the top down.


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Originally Posted by PokerProp View Post
Another example is Full Tilt. I get 35% MGR with them (no secret everyone knows this is available) but I have to use someone elses account. The reason this is the case was because when I signed up to be an affiliate with them tiers were 20 and 25%. All sorts of sites are offering 27% rakeback. I email them asking what we need to do to get more than 25%. There answer after many emails is that there is no guarantee no matter how much volume I do I'll ever earn more than 25%. Now they have this tier system and with $50K i could earn 35% with my own account. If they had that when I started i'd be way over $50K. I negotiate back and forth with Full TIlt asking for 32% and then 35% when I reach certain tiers. It cost them NOTHING to give this to me. I have a bunch of options now to get 35% using someone else account so its actually a bargain for them.
Wouldn't it be great if common sense was more prevalent!
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  #37 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:03 AM
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Sorry to confuse you I'm using the term loyalty program in conjunction with in house rakeback.....with the point being automated, in house rakeback, or loyaltyprogram/rakeback alternatives and affiliate getting a small but reasonable %.
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  #38 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:07 AM
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Sorry to confuse you I'm using the term loyalty program in conjunction with in house rakeback.....with the point being automated, in house rakeback, or loyaltyprogram/rakeback alternatives and affiliate getting a small but reasonable %.
Ohhh... stop confusing me They can put a 100 pretty names on it, but at the end of the day, we have come to know of it as rakeback
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  #39 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:22 AM
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I meant if the room publicly advertised that they were providing an inhouse rakeback system while still allowing you to send players with yours. Not just you because I know not everyone has these deals and many pay the players themselves. But if you ended up in a situation where you had to compete with the poker room specifically for rakeback such as we do with bonuses, and the poker room told players upon signup that they could get it...would you pack up and leave or would you continue to target players who would be searching for those terms, even though those terms were a result of the player being informed by the poker room.
This makes no sense to me. I feel like I'm taking the bait by saying yes but Yes. For example WSEX, they offer 75% rakeback to all players. They allow me to offer 80% rakeback but I'm not competing with them much over rakeback even though I have a better rate for my players than what they offer. Because I send far more players that were not at all looking for WSEX to them then I send maybe an occasional player who would of signed up anyways and stumbled up my site and found a better offer.

In any case if the poker room offered internal rakeback, I'm still not doing anything different. I'm sure not wasting my time trying to link WSEX rakeback to manipulate google to giving me traffic because the only people that sign up at their poker rooms are ones finding the page from there sportsbook or heard from a site that there is this poker room that gives everyone 75% rakeback. There no need to compete on that.

A while back same was the case with an action room called RakebackRooms. I was not going to try to rate for RakebackRooms rakeback because everyone knew it was a site that offered rakeback it was for all players. I did however send them players other ways and got paid?

Ladbrokes they offer everyone rakeback but EVERY single month it is a loyalty bonus that expires that month. They also pay CPA to people referring them rakeback players, seeing as all players are rakeback players at Ladbrokes.

So yes, I had an still would promote rooms with internal rakeback programs. In fact I would prefer all rooms went the route of making their deals available to EVERYONE. and no just players who use certain affiliates.
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  #40 ()  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:38 AM
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How is telling a player to delete cookies not stealing?
I don't care either way.I work with 2 different companies that tell people to do this and it does not bother me that they do it.
If sites didn't want us to that they should ask I suppose. Once there the expecting rakeback you won't hear the end of it if they don't get it. If 2 days after signing up that player starts complaining they registered with a rakeback site and did not get tracked, what is that card room going to do? Near 100% of the time they move the player to the rakeback deal he was expecting (most of those times to the site he mentioned) Having them delete cookies doesn't cause other sites to lose players. It creates less work for the poker rooms and the rakeback providers. Like it or not that is how things are. Its only happened to me maybe 30 times and probably 29 the new player just signing up got his request after complaining to the card room.

I personally don't say (my partners might I'm not sure, but I don't) delete cookies because its a waste of good text on a page - average player deletes cookies themselves before taking a rakeback offer.[/quote]
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Telling them to uninstall software?
Same response though that one might be pushing it
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Or to email the rakeback provider if they have never made a real money deposit.
They'll ask the card room, card room makes decision.

If someone contact me and says I already have an account at this room can I get rakeback I say no, but If there is additional questions to respond to where I can build a rapport, I'll be selling him something else in a few more emails

If someone contacts me and says I have an account but never deposited can I get rakeback. I'll ask the room, I don't care either way I'm not attached to the results I feel its my job to ask the room for them and its up to them.
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