Ouch

[hazo]

Well done, best of luck for the rest of the tourney. Keep us updated.

Nick

[PPP]

Originally Posted by Ridge

I might have missed what stage in the tournament this was in. Was it late, middle, or early? that does have an impact as well. I just have trouble not stacking off with quad aces when there are so many other hands that he calls with and losses. Also, I don't know either of these player, they may be well known pros or something. Against your average donk of an opponent, I'm stacking off 9 out of 10 times..

It's day 1a of the main even tof the wsop, and since the final is in November, I would have to say this is the "earliest" possible "early" in a tournament.

Don't think that you are stacking off with quad aces. You are stacking off with the second nuts. What those are don't matter. Another straight flush example would be a board of Js5d4d3d2d it would be folly for a person to REraise in the river with AdKd. Sure the person would have a straight flush, but it's just the second nuts, and the best hand an opponent can have is the fourth nuts (Qd), so you are extremely unlikely to get called on the stack off bet, except when you lose -- and when you lose you are eliminated from the main event of the WSOP. This again makes the reraise hopeless. People just don't see themselves going home saying "oh I called a big REraise on the river with the sixth nuts."

(Or what about a board of AdKdQdJd2s... would you REraise allin with 9d8d??? Again this situation allows you to be called by the FOURTH nuts when the above scenario only allows the SIXTH nuts to call and lose.)

[coolpokerguy]

I actually agree with PPP here. Despite his, let's call it lack of, laid back nature in expressing himself, he's absolutely correct. I've played the main event each year since 2004, and lots of WPT events. I've had some decent cashes, and had a chance to go really deep once, but decided to play myself out of it....sigh

Originally Posted by PPP

Don't think that you are stacking off with quad aces. You are stacking off with the second nuts.

Well said.

Would anyone go broke early on with a one card straight when a two card straight beats you?

[themike537]

Yep I see the reasoning here, I just think I'd have a really hard time not getting all my money in, but maybe my head is clouded because its quad Aces instead of just a King high flush on a three-flush board.

[offyourface]

Originally Posted by PPP

Teerible reraise on the river. What did he think the guy had that would not have reraised him preflop?

Moving in with the second nut when the best possible hand that can call you (that you can beat) is the sixth nut is the road to the rail.

It's not a bad beat to bust yourself when you were losing on the turn already anyway (and you were losing on the turn because you slowplayed the flop).

You sound like the guy that only calls his aces full because of the 44 on the board and the guy might have quad 4's. Not reraising that hand will cost you far more money over time than the once in a blue moon your quads are beat down.

I can't believe you think raising the river with quads was a bad move because his opponent might have the 2 cards that make a royal flush, a once in a life time hand lmao. Maybe if there was 4 to a straight flush or something, but if he can beat the quads -- good luck, I will take my loss and play it the same way next time and the time after.

I remember playing last week and dude flopped quad sixes, flop came 668, turn a dud, river an 8 and first dude with quad sixes bets 200, other guy in the hand raises 400 and bozo with quad sixes just calls. Guy had an 8 for the boat, quads take it down. So I ask bozo, what, didn't like your quads lmao. And he says, thought he might of had quad eights. Could of got the guy for another $1500 because he wasnt laying down his boat. Point being is I see this mistake made so much it aint even funny, players get a premium hand and bet it like a girl because there is 1 hand out there that can beat you. Horrible poker.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by offyourface

I remember playing last week and dude flopped quad sixes, flop came 668, turn a dud, river an 8 and first dude with quad sixes bets 200, other guy in the hand raises 400 and bozo with quad sixes just calls. Guy had an 8 for the boat, quads take it down. So I ask bozo, what, didn't like your quads lmao. And he says, thought he might of had quad eights. Could of got the guy for another $1500 because he wasnt laying down his boat. Point being is I see this mistake made so much it aint even funny, players get a premium hand and bet it like a girl because there is 1 hand out there that can beat you. Horrible poker.

I think that is different then the hand in question. The correct move in the above situation is to re-raise b/c there are several calling hands like pocket duds to match the turn, or one 8 like he had. PPP's point was that the only calling hand was the 6th nuts and it would be a call for all your chips in the WSOP main event. Totally different scenario. I make money playing poker but am no high stakes pro, but I definitely wouldn't have reraised there. My reasoning would be similar, there is no way he is calling down his whole stack unless he has the royal. Also I think PPP has won a WSOP bracelet before so he knows what he's talking about .

[PPP]

Originally Posted by offyourface

You sound like the guy that only calls his aces full because of the 44 on the board and the guy might have quad 4's. Not reraising that hand will cost you far more money over time than the once in a blue moon your quads are beat down.

I can't believe you think raising the river with quads was a bad move because his opponent might have the 2 cards that make a royal flush, a once in a life time hand lmao. Maybe if there was 4 to a straight flush or something, but if he can beat the quads -- good luck, I will take my loss and play it the same way next time and the time after.

I remember playing last week and dude flopped quad sixes, flop came 668, turn a dud, river an 8 and first dude with quad sixes bets 200, other guy in the hand raises 400 and bozo with quad sixes just calls. Guy had an 8 for the boat, quads take it down. So I ask bozo, what, didn't like your quads lmao. And he says, thought he might of had quad eights. Could of got the guy for another $1500 because he wasnt laying down his boat. Point being is I see this mistake made so much it aint even funny, players get a premium hand and bet it like a girl because there is 1 hand out there that can beat you. Horrible poker.

You've missed the point with your examples. In the case of 88662, 66 is the second nuts, but there are ELEVEN third nut hands that can call your reraise... in contrast to only one way to make SIXTH nuts as the best hand to call the aces. These are totally different circumstances, and in fact it shows why the AA all-in is so poor when you contrast that to the proper action by the 66. Of course, this is the prinicipal reason tunnelvision players would go all in with the AA, they don't know there possible range of hands an opponent can have because they fixate on their own cards.

Face it, its totally fishy, -EV poker to make a reraise that can not be called by any hand except the one that beats you... especially considering the preflop action when it is extremele unlikely that the opponent even has the sixth nuts. Reraising here with the quads is a hugely negative expectation, hatred of money bet. You can't beat nothing that will call.

[Ridge]

Well in this hand we disagree PPP. I see your point and I guess if I'm playing at a table of old school pros, I'm juts calling there. This is the WSOP ME with like Dan said, tons of dead money.

Also, it's a whole different hand if there is a 4 card SF or w/e out there. Of course that would be a bad play, but in this one I think you do often get called by several worse hands.

Anyway, I know your stuff and I see your point. I really do, but it's just such a tough play this early and with such a huge field of fish. It's really cool to hear your take on it too PPP. I'd actually love to hear more of it..

Thanks

[offyourface]

I understand the logic. But not everyone plays like GOD just because they have $10K to enter the wsop. Many players in that tourney aren't good enough to lay down their Queens full, 10's full ect... It just sounds like your saying there is only one move there (just call) that is correct if your opponent comes over the top on the river, and I don't think that is the case. Here it seems like it was the right move because he had the royal, but if the same thing happened and the guy ended up having Queens full and not good enough to lay it down, would it still be the right move believing he has the royal just because he came over the top?

Your logic makes sense PPP, but imo I don't think there is any hard fast rule on how to play that hand on the river. If you reraise and get beat you look like a bum, but if you reraise and get the guy for all his chips because he is not good enough to lay down QQ there, you look like a player that knows how to capitalize on an opportunity. There are tons of scenarios where I don't bet or come over the top on the river with second nuts because I know the only way I get a call is if they have me beat, but not when I have quad aces, more so with second flushes, straights and boats. I would be willing to bet if 20 of the best players in the world played that same hand, half of them would play it differently than the other half. It's just not like the guy played the hand horrible because he reraised with his quad aces with only one hand out there that can beat him, a royal which having that is highly unlikely.

Thats just me, I certainly have never won a wsop bracelet but I see the best players in the world play the same hands very differently. There are just too many variables to say that there is a hard fast rule to playing that particular hand. When you get the guy for all his chips and double up you look like a hero there. I mean with all the donks that play poker, it just sounds to me like your saying there is only one correct way to play that hand, I just dont think that's true. I am pretty sure raising your quads in that position will make you more money in your life than just calling quads. However if your tighty wighty playing in the WSOP and won't risk all your chips unless you have the stone cold nuts, then I understand. You could raise or call in that situation and justify both ways. But its not like I am going to say to myself, oh shit, he came over the top, he must have the royal so I guess I don't like my quads anymore.

[Georgia Poker]

Originally Posted by PPP

Face it, its totally fishy, -EV poker to make a reraise that can not be called by any hand except the one that beats you...

Simple and to the point, PPP.

Why are you folks having such a tough time rationalizing this?