My Discrimination Theory

[richardb]

Originally posted by taketherakeback@Jan 5 2006, 07:36 PM
You are missing the main point behind my post PPP. My main question is, as you are clearly not a rakeback affiliate, what are you doing for your players lately? What type of service do you provide your players? Do you treat them well? Do you send them a thank you card when you get your check every month? Do you even have to do anything at all.

Let me give you a brick and mortar example. In Los Angeles, the two biggest card clubs are Commerce and Bicycle Casino. Bicycle Casino offers a lower rake than commerce, a players reward program that basically gives you a "rakeback" of 5 dollars an hour, free food, and a lot of other promotions. Commerce Casino does not offer any of that. Commerce does 10 times the business that the Bike does. It is not because of the location of the casinos, they are just a few miles apart.

Why do the players go to Commerce instead of the Bike? Because of the action and because of the fish. They dont care about anything else. Customer service, bonuses, and free promotional items are the last thing on their mind. They just want to play.

When I send a player to a poker site, I am giving them what they want. I am sending them to a reputable site where they can feel safe and secure playing there. That is all they want from me and that is all they will get. I will not send them a thank you card or anything like that. They just want to play.

If a site approves of rakeback, go for it. But I think there is PLENTY of money to be made by promoting sites that don't promote it.

[PPP]

"I am sure if you were to poll your players and ask if your players had to make a choice between reading your strategy articles, or get direct payments into their poker account every month through rakeback."

I think you have no idea what you are talking about. You are focusing on this other business where no value is created.. That's okay, but your statement unfortunately shows your lack of appreciation of what people truly value. Poker players want poker games. Poker players gain far more value from content than some scheme. And to winning poker players, rakeback is small compared to win rates.

You need to ask yourself why you are choosing to give nothing to poker players. Those of us who have been in the business of giving back to poker players for years will of course shake our heads at these upstarts doing nothing for players besides being a conduit of a portion of their affiliate fees, but until you can see and understand what value is, you have to follow your path. You can either choose to create unique value or not, but the money goes to those to do create value. Baking the pie is the valuable thing, not cutting up one slice.

[checkingout]

The most profitable players (who contribute the most to rake) do not care about rakeback.

Also, as a sidenote if you offer your rakeback players x%, what do you think will happen when another site offers them x+2%? Rakeback players are generally all about the deal.

[ethomps]

"The most profitable players (who contribute the most to rake) do not care about rakeback"

Not true...that's like saying the wealthiest ppl in the world don't mind paying $6 for a pop at the Bellagio.

As for all the great content and startegy guides...who says rakeback sites can't provide that? Even if they don't..what is stopping a player that is getting rakeback from ABCrakeback.com that does not provide a good strategy guide and content... from reading a great,free, strategy guide and conent on ABCpoker.com??

This is truly one of the best threads of the year so far. I always like this discussion because number one I am honestly indifferent on the matter so I can see both points.

I think richardb pointed out something that is HUGE and shows what PPP is trying to explain when he pointed out the difference between Commerce and the Bike. The big players are in "The Poker Business" not the promo business. This is true both in live poker and online poker.

I am not going to restate all my thoughts that I said in my thread with Beanie the other day, but you can read them here. Jeremy's thoughts on rakeback

I have spoken with some of the top brass at Party and the other big sites in the past year, and there's no doubt they realize the need to reward their bigger players. However they also realize that there is no need for a third party affiliate to essentially be processing rakeback payments every month. Actually being a U.S. citizen and paying rakeback brings up an entirely different issue, but we'll save that bag of worms for another day. Bottom line is that the big players in the industry don't need us to facilitate cash back or rewards.

I also don't understand the arguement on morals or ethics and having to give money back to the players. My job is to send players to a poker room....I deserve the commission they are willing to pay. Sure I may give something to my big players but it certainly isn't going to be 97% of my commission back every month. That's like working for free. It's no different than any of my other business ventures. I also have a successful real estate business and I don't feel the need to give my customers a huge portion of my commission back.

Regarding good content versus bonuses or cash back. I think of bonus whores and freeroll whores the same, these players add no value to card rooms or affiliates. The majority of winning players would rather read good content than take an extra 20% on their deposit all day long. Why do you think people will spend all their FPP points on books. The good players are always trying to learn and absorb more information. Speaking of which I have read PPP's articles and they are more valuable to my bottom line at the tables than any deposit bonus or rakeback deal could ever be.

I am not against rakeback or affiliates who offer it, I just don't understand why you woud want to grind out getting all those players to only make a small %. I know it is all about volume with rakeback providers, but geesh I can make more on 10 1-2 players than a RB provider with 100 players.......and alot less work.On the same token though I do know rakeback affiliates who make loads of cash every month.

Maybe I am the crook actually :unsure:

P.S. I would pay $6 for a coke at the Bellagio....

[NeverBeg]

I am not against rakeback or affiliates who offer it, I just don't understand why you woud want to grind out getting all those players to only make a small %. I know it is all about volume with rakeback providers, but geesh I can make more on 10 1-2 players than a RB provider with 100 players.......and alot less work.On the same token though I do know rakeback affiliates who make loads of cash every month.

This is exactly what I was getting at when I said that I started out in this business being a poker player first, and an affiliate second. Therefore as a poker player, I personally wanted to be taken care of in the sense that I knew I was going to be providing a lot of revenue for the site, so I thought it would be nice if I could get rewarded back some how.

And yes I know rakeback affiliates make squat compared to what the regular non rakeback affiliates in this industry make. But really I am not in it as a sole basis of my income. I am a college student, so I dont have the time to do this full time, and I also have other jobs. But to be honest, I enjoy this industry, and that is why I have stuck with it this far. I enjoy the challenge of doing the work, constructing my site, getting my site out there. Even though I am seeing very little in return so far, the future does look some what promising and this is what keeps me going. This business is fun, and I am enjoying putting in the work that I put into it. I know this is a never ending argument, but I want to promote what I believe in. And I believe that poker players deserve to be rewarded if they are willing to put large sums of money out their on online poker tables where really only god knows where its going. I really do like working on my site, and talking with the players 1 on 1, and I feel content when I am able to give a player what he is looking for.

[absentx]

Wow...

I go out to a bar for a few drinks, come back home, and PAW has blown up into POKERRAKEBACKWARS.COM again.

The division of thought on this subject is literally unbreakable

I dont even know where to jump in on this one.

How about this:

5 out of the 6 sites I promote handle the payments themselves and I just send them players. I make money doing it. I am happy. Thank you.

The other one site I promote is because I was solicited by their company to promote them in an honest rakeback affiliation that they approved. I make money doing it. I am happy. Thank you.

Maybe I should just hijack this thread into a fishing subject and see what happens...

[fatbill]

I have been a poker affiliate for a couple years now, and I am pretty indifferent to the rakeback issue, although I dont offer it, and have not considered doing so. My question is.... is Rakeback even worth it to the vast majority of players?

There are very few sharks, and a lot of fish. The fish really dont play enough to make rakeback profitable for either themselves or an affiliated in my mind. ( no, I have not developed any forumla to analyze this )

Wouldn't they be better off with bonus' than rakeback in the majority of cases?

[GregK]

Our spring Chinook run is supposed to suck this year

[absentx]

Thats too bad Greg.

Salmon fishing in the Great lakes has been at record levels for the last four years. Unfortunately, the DNR doesnt think its sustainable, so we most likely will see a decline in fishing over the next few years. They are running out of baitfish to eat!