My Discrimination Theory

[NeverBeg]

The idea for this topic came up while I was trying to get some people to review my site over in the site review area of this forum. After a couple of suggestions to post my frustrations here I decided it would make for a good discussion if people were interested. Here it goes....

Basically I am well aware of that this is a forum largely populated with regular affiliates, promoting the big non rakeback sites such as Party, Paradise, Pokerstars, etc. Us rakeback affiliates are clearly the minority here but there are a lot of things that I think are unfair on the way we are viewed in this industry, and the way we are flat out disrespected in this forum for what we do to try and earn a few extra bucks. Basically I felt like I was disrespected in that I posted a request to review my site, and I feel that because its a rakeback site I did not get as many suggestions as I thought a regular affiliate would have gotten for his site.

I am sick and tired of hearing affiliates say how rakeback affiliates are bad for this industry. Us rakeback affiliates are scraping and clawing for literally 1/10 of the income that regular affiliates are making for doing extremeley little for their players. Lets keep in mind that a rakeback affiliate makes anywhere from 2-5% per sign up, while a regular affiliate makes anywhere from 25-45% per sign up. The difference in pay checks is astronomical.

So why is there so much hate for rakeback affiliates? Is it because more and more players are finding out about it? Is it because it increases competition in the market? Regular affiliates through out this forum talk about how they love and care for the players they sign up. Well my question to you is what have you done for your player lately? You give them the same deposit bonuses / reload bonuses that the site would give them regardless of whether they clicked your banner or not! So what service are you providing for these players? Yes you may provide reviews of the poker rooms, or fun articles to read, whatever, is that really enough? These are the players we are talking about that are the reason you affiliates are taking in 25k checks per month. So my question is, what are you giving back?

I must say that I really love PPCOMPS site, it is brilliant. Here is a guy who is going to get sign ups, and big players because he is offering something out of his own pay check back to his players. He is looking to take care of them, and treat them like a VIP, a true baller building a reputation for himself.

Rakeback affiliates are actually providing a service for their players, they provide 24/7 customer support through IM communication if their players need anything, and in my case, the rakeback affiliate who I am partnered up with pays our players directly out of his own pocket when our players want to be paid! He provides instant cashouts, and then gets re-imbursed by the pokersites once a month. Again we provide a service, we are paying our players essentially 95% of our "payments."

This is not to say that regular affiliates do not work hard, because I believe they do. Coming up with great new niches, and building content, and getting their site out there, this is a VERY grueling job. And I am amazed by the effort that affiliates are making to really succeed at what they do. So I have nothing but love and respect for the affiliates at this forum and in this industry.

One more thing I am truly sick and tired of hearing about is "oh well party/paradise/pokerstars are the 3 biggest sites and they dont have rakeback and they are the biggest because they dont offer rakeback." This suggests that somehow rakeback is bad for this industry. I think this is a load of crap personally! They are the biggest because they are the ones putting themselves on regular prime time tv ad spots, and getting their name out to NEW players with big time advertising. These new players that these sites target probably dont even know what rake is, let a lone rakeback, so why tell them? It is truly genuis marketing plan, why give something extra to the player when they don't need to know that something like rakeback exists. Let them think the deposit bonus is the greatest thing in the world!

I hate to make this post so long, but I would like to finish my ranting with one final comment. And it is that I believe rakeback is where this industry is headed. As poker expands every year they play the WSOP on ESPN and all the other events, the poker boom just keeps exploding. And before you know it word gets around. People want this extra incentive to play online poker. They are literally risking their funds with offshore companies who could withold payments, they need to feel like they can trust these sites. Sorry for making this post long, but I just had to get some stuff out there off my chest. I do not mean to step on anybody's toes here, just looking to see what other people think about this. BASH AWAY.

[Kyle]

I agree with alot of what you say, except for this:

"Lets keep in mind that a rakeback affiliate makes anywhere from 2-5% per sign up, while a regular affiliate makes anywhere from 25-45% per sign up. The difference in pay checks is astronomical. "

That is nobody's fault but your own. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to take 2 - 5% on each player.

[PPP]

First, I'd suggest a less adversarial approach. It's hard for some people to accept, but we all get to have our own opinions, especially opinions about something like "what is the best way to make a customer loyal" or stuff like that.

Your statement about the site review thing is valid, and something I've thought about before.

Your main thrust though is here:
"This suggests that somehow rakeback is bad for this industry. I think this is a load of crap personally!"

Why would you take this personally? This goes back to the first thing I said. For years some folks thought tournaments were bad for the poker industry, while others of course were tournament directors or tournament only players. Whether they were good or bad is just a business philosophy disagreement.

Rakeback is terrible for the poker industry (but if some cardroom chooses to have it, fine, they can choose their own business model). The reasons are nearly endless and, no getting around this part, fairly obvious to non-newbies.
1) Focusing on the rake in any way is terrible for cardrooms; some people do not even know how the cardrooms make money (both online and in casinos you hear people wonder this)
2) Rakeback means there will be scandals and ripoffs. It is a dead certainty that every rakeback site in existence now will not be in existence forever... suppose even some rakeback provider dies. What happens? Those players promised something will not get it, period. Unfortunately most people have no interest in the long run and don't think about this stuff (just like some people assume those idiotic "lifetime" clauses in affiliate deals really do mean "lifetime")
3) Rake wars are a loser for cardrooms, and always have been. Why do you think no cardroom comes onto the market with a 1% rake? All that could ever do is be matched by the bigger places. It would never work, and all it would do is reduce revenue.
4) Rakeback encourages player poaching. While this is just bottom feeding unpleasantness in general, the cardrooms HATE this for the very obvious reason that they don't want to pay out first time bonuses a hundred times.
5) The largest cardrooms are in the poker business, not the promotion business. This is still the central element of why the biggest rooms are the biggest. They run poker rooms, not sideshows. If they want lower rake, they wll lower the rake, they don't need some third party involved in anything regarding their players.

[PPP]

The other thing that the original post doesn't address at all is how rakeback against the rules is completely different than rakeback within the rules. The former are cheating scum. The latter are just doing business. It isn't the "rakeback" part of that that is the issue. Cheaters and crooks are bad for honest people. It just so happens that rakeback is one of the common areas of cheating... with web spam and email spam being others, but terms and conditions aren't usually as crystal clear on those.

"People want this extra incentive to play online poker. They are literally risking their funds with offshore companies who could withold payments, they need to feel like they can trust these sites."

And that is exactly one of the other key reasons the big sites will never allow third party rakeback and why rakeback will never be more than the footnote it is. These "offshore" companies don't need some third party ripping off their players, or blaming them for some issue they aren't involved in. The online poker industry needs to get the trust of players, and they do this by offering secure games, responsible financial transactions and a whole lot of other things where they TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for everything. Rakeback is an abdication of responsibility, and a can of worms to worry about. It is something that is blatantly obviously not needed -- clearly the cardrooms could just do it themselves better than third parties -- so why add the hassle? Either offer it themselves, or don't offer it.

[NeverBeg]

Ok PPP, so while I admit that some rakeback affiliates are scam artists, and are looking to move current players to other accounts so they can be put on their rakeback tracker. I am well aware of this, please dont get me wrong. I am proud to say that I am not one of these players. If a player emailed me and told me that he already had an account at empire but wanted a new one at empire with rakeback, i would simply tell him no. And offer him a deal somewhere else where he didnt have an account. Regardless, I think the rakeback affiliates on this forum are very legit as I have been talking with a number of them and got to know them.

You are missing the main point behind my post PPP. My main question is, as you are clearly not a rakeback affiliate, what are you doing for your players lately? What type of service do you provide your players? Do you treat them well? Do you send them a thank you card when you get your check every month? Do you even have to do anything at all.

I was first a poker player, and second an affiliate, as i am sure most of you were. Once I found out about rakeback, i asked myself, how can anybody be dumb enough to play without it? I honestly want to provide my players with something. I want them to feel an appretiated member of the poker room they sign up at. And there is no better way of doing this, than to literally pay them some of their rakeback in return. I actually take pride in this, and it makes me feel good when I figure out my payment was for the months of hard work. What makes you proud when you get your check monthly? I guess this has a lot to do with morals, but personally I would feel bad to just take all the players rake for myself and not give them anything in return. This is why for my non rakeback sites I am trying to give something away as a prize.

Great post PPP,

I think you have to remember Take, is that you are new to this, and there is a lot that has happened before you got into the biz.

None rakebackers see rakebackers as scum. Which may not be fair, but since there were so many bad ones, all rakebackers got stereotyped into it.

Rakeback is easily the most sensitive subject, and there will be many different opinions.

When a certain new site came to me and asked what I though about if they should or should not allow it, I told them no. It brings in way to many unhonest people that will just cause hassles. (it also would knock off about 75% of good affiliates since many wont touch a site that does).
:::edit addon::::

Take,
you also need to remember that there are a lot of nonerackback affiliates in the business that are just not nice people. They could be scam artests (look at jeremy ) Personally I don't touch rakeback, but when you came to me for help, I did and will continue to do anything to help you out. Its just morals and ethics, some will help, some wont.

[PPP]

Originally posted by taketherakeback@Jan 5 2006, 05:36 PM
You are missing the main point behind my post PPP. My main question is, as you are clearly not a rakeback affiliate, what are you doing for your players lately? What type of service do you provide your players? Do you treat them well? Do you send them a thank you card when you get your check every month? Do you even have to do anything at all.

Well if you want me to take something personally, I'll grab this.

I provide more to "my players" than any bunch of rakeback providers will in an eternity. You see, I am in THE POKER BUSINESS. I provide poker content. I provide material that will help poker players. You are focusing on an entirely different business that I persoanlly couldn't care less about. I don't spend thirty minutes a month thinking about bonuses or crap like that. I'm in the poker business.

One poker strategy article could be worth thousands and thousands of dollars to anyone who reads it. That is what I care about.

More fairly to your point though, I don't take MGR ever. I'm not in that business either. Personally I believe MGR will also go the way of the dodo before 2010 as the industry matures. I'm not in the casino part of the poker business and have no interest in it, although I do obviously make money from the casino poker business doing its thing.

I provide more to "my players" than any bunch of rakeback providers will in an eternity. You see, I am in THE POKER BUSINESS. I provide poker content. I provide material that will help poker players. You are focusing on an entirely different business that I persoanlly couldn't care less about. I don't spend thirty minutes a month thinking about bonuses or crap like that. I'm in the poker business.

Post of the year so far!

[ethomps]

I also think Rakeback is where the industry is heading...all it takes is for one guy to strike a conversation whether it be at a casino...or a friendly home game...it really is to bad that it is going to be heading this way becasue affiliates are going to do anything to offer competive rates just for the sign up..and yes they're will be lots of scam artists...but I think the rakeback affiliates that are going to do best are the ones that have a site with a forum where members can leave feedback and such on how legit the rakeback offer was.

"I provide more to "my players" than any bunch of rakeback providers will in an eternity. You see, I am in THE POKER BUSINESS. I provide poker content. I provide material that will help poker players. You are focusing on an entirely different business that I persoanlly couldn't care less about. I don't spend thirty minutes a month thinking about bonuses or crap like that. I'm in the poker business."

Sure you do...but it is also free info that is available along with rakeback..

If some can convince me why not to take rakeback I will give them $100....

[NeverBeg]

PPP, even if you write the best poker content this world has ever seen, I still dont think that any of your strategy articles could constitute as thousands of dollars in the pockets of your players. But then again, maybe I am wrong, and you truly do write truly remarkable strategy articles. Your in the poker business, and so am I. We both have our right to be successful through whichever avenue we choose to take, whether it be rakeback, or not rakeback. I think you should be fortunate for the players that you have obtained PPP and all I am asking for you is to think whether you might want to offer your players something back. I am sure if you were to poll your players and ask if your players had to make a choice between reading your strategy articles, or get direct payments into their poker account every month through rakeback. I think it is obvious as to what your players would truly want.