Do Poker Rooms Cheat?

[alexpratt]

I voted that most can be trusted.

I really would hate to be wrong - It would mean an end to a very enjoyable hobby, an industry I love and so much more.

I do find it odd that 6 people have ticked the first option particulary when they are very likely poker affiliates themselves and thus the majority of the time promoting somtheing they believe is lie.

[Darko]

yea its too broad of a question, although i think most sites are safe, i also think every single site has cheaters on it in the form of collusion and poker bots. FT recently (or in the last yr) made a statement they found and kicked off a bot.


Edit: hmmm, just read the question again.... "Do Online Poker Rooms Cheat Their Players?"

I dont think my answer is correct then, as those cheating methods are not really from the poker room (although its there job to find and stop it)

So "Do Online Poker Rooms Cheat Their Players?" I would say 99% NO.

[Graham]

I voted "No - online poker rooms are 99.9% honest!"

Because though there may be incidents occassionally, the reality is these incidents are less than 0.1% of all poker play online.

Those who answered yes, I have no idea what is wrong with you / or assume you read the question wrong? If you feel that strongly then you are aiding and abetting these rampant cheaters that you believe to exist. Remember, the question here was about the rooms, not the players. Why would a room need to cheat when they can sit back and collect millions of dollars from every single hand played on their site????

[Graham]

As for the AP thing... Yes, they screwed up bad, but I do think it was handled pretty well. All players affected will receive compensation (from what I have read). It really is a sticky situation though. The fact that they let it happen in the first place is very scary. I am still undecided on this one.

Disclaimer: I have never promoted AP, nor do I plan to in the near future.

[Jeremy]

As Darko and a few other members have mentioned, the problem with cheating and online poker is not necessarily the rooms themselves, instead it is the players.

There is no question that collusion, multi-accounting, and playing with bots is major issue right now. However you also have to keep in mind that in any business where there are millions of dollars at stake, cheating will be present in some form.

A great example is the stock market. I used to trade OTC and Pink sheet stocks, and if you think online poker is fixed, spend a day watching the market makers who buy & sell these.

In regards to poker, people have been cheating at this game way before the online era started. It sucks, but with millions of players online, it is impossible to eliminate all cheating. Personally I trust the actual rooms way more than the other players at the table.

[LadyHoldem]

I had a little tiny tiny exp with AP the other day, I'da made it news, but it really was a tiny lil incident that would be just funny to see splashed all over the dang internet.

I did email their press rep, he did ignore the email.. so it was tempting buddy!

Anyway, big big $1.00 sit n go ( i have lotsa funny $1 sng stories, just recently, I ask a guy.. what are you a freakin poker pro .. turns out he was a sportsbetting pro, published.. I ate a lil crow after we made friends, posted a review of his book on 4flush :P ) anyway, I doubled up, my daughter wanted my attention, I walked away.

When the game goes down to four, in my chat window, the 3 left make a deal to check me out, small blind raises until I'm gone.

They tell each other that they're folding k's, q's .. big hands, they lol.

One of the guys says he wishes the blind would go up, I mean they're at this for awhile, and it's a flawed plan, so the small stack who was benefiting the most from the sb raise move was now the big stack. You know all this just from the chat, I mean they likely don't even know it's actual collusion, they're not hiding it.

I emailed AP, who decided that there was no evidence of Collusion. I emailed back, now thinking I am in this story the whiney tattle tale who really lost ONE DOLLAR, after not sticking around to win my game.. but said ... umm no collusion? Buddy how obv do they have to be? Do they need a letter of admission from the players?

This is like a day after Kahnawake smacks em on the hand for the last 'incident'.


PS I voted in the poll, 'cheating happens from time to time' after I voted, I decided I should have refrained No real good can come from a poll where affiliates of an industry, or its promoters, create statistical information as to whether or not there is cheating in the industry.

[Andromedan]

Do I think pokerrooms cheat? Yes

I have played in dozens of online pokerrooms, and the pattern I always see is that the first day of play is always remarkably profiting. I have only seen two or three pokerrooms that are consequent in their dealing so do speak. I have heard the same experience from hundreds of other players.

I think everyone should be entitled to his own opinion, and no person should be crucified for thinking that pokerrooms cheat, because it has become clear for some, that they do in fact cheat their players. Who says there aren't more that do?

I also think the psychological aspect of denial plays a key role in the war between the believers and the non-believers. Some people can't afford their beloved pokerrooms to cheat them, simply because they need a reality of control and perfection that suits their needs, and they are in greater numbers. A person who has lost his entire bankroll might rage his anger towards a pokerroom and accuse it with cheating. This is the other side of the medal I think.

Most players use very smart arguments to get rid of the idea of cheating pokerrooms. One might be, "It is not within their interest". Well, is it not within their interest? Apparently it is for UB and AP.

Personally, I don't think that people are ready to see what the reality is regarding online poker. Reality and gambling often don't mix well, because for most people the intention is to flee reality. Ofcourse that is denied also.

This war will last for tens of years in my opinion, because it reflects on how society functions in its whole. Currently most pokerrooms are to powerful and wealthy to be investigated into their inner core. Money and power over truth. Using the pain of people for profit. This means that it is the pokerrooms and followers against the few that notice something is wrong.

I have stopped playing poker for the simple reason that I have noticed patterns that have nothing to do with correct chance or odds, hundreds of times, not because I lost money, because I have not. I have even known a guy that played for an online pokerroom to rid people of their bankrolls on high stakes. I think online poker deserves negative publicity in a million times the quantity that it gets now.

These are my opinions, and I should be entitled to them like anyone else.

[LadyHoldem]

Welcome to the forum, you are of course welcome to your opinion.. but .. are you lost? Go back to when you hit register.. what did you think you would gain from your membership here? What is it that you have to offer to the community?

I'm not saying you're wrong or right, just that this is an affiliate forum you've just made your first post in, and I'm not seeing how you can benefit from being a member of an affiliate forum, as you don't sound much like an affiliate, or promoter of online poker..

[ThePokerBank]

That was one of the better structured arguements that I have come across suggesting online poker is rigged, most of them are just people getting mad because they lost on pocket aces.

It looks like have suggested quite a lot, but not really brought any proof to the table to back up your arguements though.

I always see is that the first day of play is always remarkably profiting. I have only seen two or three pokerrooms that are consequent in their dealing so do speak. I have heard the same experience from hundreds of other players.

I'm sure I could find you a few hundred other players that say the exact opposite, so it doesn't really mean anything. Also, playing at a poker room for a few days isn't enough to suggest the room is rigged. At most you are going to play a few hundred hands a day, which is not nearly enough to say a room might be rigged.

If I flipped a coin 10 times and it came up heads twice, and tails 8 times, would you say the coin was rigged? No, its just probability and you would accept that. However, if we instead had bet $10 on each flip and you chose heads, I'm sure that you and others would be all too happy to suggest that my coin was 'rigged' somehow, even though it wasn't.

People are not happy when they lose money, and they want to find a reason why. When it comes to Poker, its much easier to say the cardrooms are rigged rather than admit that their game needs some work.

All the arguements for online poker being rigged always circle around "I think this" or "I think that". There are never any stats or figures or proof to back it up (except in the one-off AP case). If you really think online poker is rigged, then go get PokerOffice or PokerTracker and play a few thousand hands. When you look at the data and find some proof that the RNG isn't working correctly, maybe more people will take notice.

The whole 'rigged' arguements also confuse me. Who is it rigged for? Some people must not realise that card rooms make money through your rake, and not directly from your losses.

[PokerProp]

Originally Posted by alexpratt

I do find it odd that 6 people have ticked the first option particulary when they are very likely poker affiliates themselves and thus the majority of the time promoting somtheing they believe is lie.

Not necessarily the case. They might have a site with their honest opinions, which discusses why its important to play at a top tier rooms.

I believe beyond reasonable doubt that AP was not an isolated incident but it surprises me a bit that a room reaching a fairly decent volume of players would attempt this.

Anyways cheating is a broad word. I believe most of the online poker rooms are ran by total scum. They might of not been scum to start out but when the temptation to cheat becomes strong enough they mostly all eventually turn.

I don't think there are many that would argue that more than half the online sportsbooks out their are scams. These same group of investors have done numerous poker deals - There is a network now with a couple hundred players during peak hours who I'm pretty confident cheats. There financial backers are crooks as well. I won't name names though because while crooks there also not the type I would like to mess with.

The rooms we are mostly promoting can be trusted. the hundred others that have come and gone, I don't believe the majority of those can be trusted.
I vote option #1 because I feel that a significant portion, be it 20, 30, 40, 50, or however many % find a way eventually become cheats in one way or another.
Again though I use cheating broadly. I believe Future Bet were cheats. When a players balance became high enough that the value of steeling it was enough EV that would not be offset by the PR hit they stole it. They did this for years and were very successful cheats IMO.

Anyways thats my take and I'm not off promoting a lie. I'll call it like I see it anywhere with no concern over the money it will make or cost me.