New Terms at Fulltilt - your players have only 60 days to deposit

[Prenut]

Like I have stated plenty, I don't like the terms being enforced now. Furthermore I don't think they could have built their business to the point it is now if they always enforced this term. However we need not misrepresent the situation. That term has always been in the affiliate agreement. It isn't something that was just thrown in.

Originally Posted by Constance

Changing terms which cancels affiliates hard work over the last 4 years is predatory by all definitions.


Yes, they have as much right as full tilt for adding debatable predatory terms. Both would be negative for the affiliate industry in general.

Full Tilt would have to back down but the thing is, they dont have to because there is a lack of unity. If pokernews stand by them, it only backs their theory.

[Constance]

Originally Posted by Prenut

Like I have stated plenty, I don't like the terms being enforced now. Furthermore I don't think they could have built their business to the point it is now if they always enforced this term. However we need not misrepresent the situation. That term has always been in the affiliate agreement. It isn't something that was just thrown in.

Lets not misrepresent Term 5.3

Termination By Us. We may terminate this Agreement, with or without cause, upon thirty (30) days written notice to you.

[TheDonk]

I don't even know what to say, I'm utterly shocked. It's funny though that just after Bodog opened their doors to many new affiliates, FT is slamming theirs shut. Many of us have talked about developing more around Bodog & Stars now, think they're loving this?

I did want to say something about what Constance and Prenut are arguing about. Both of you have made some very good points, but Prenut, I think the issue Constance is talking about is really the same thing the rest of us are talking about. It doesn't matter much that FT had this in their Terms since the beginning, it's the fact that affiliates have spent ridiculous amounts of money & manhours to develop their FT business, and now that they've helped FT get towards the very top of the mountain, they're thowing everyone off the cliff. Like I said in a previous post, this isn't an issue of what's legal or what isn't. It's an issue of ethics in business, some have it and some don't. FT has shown us they don't. Worse than that, when you really think about how they've handled this it's simply mindboggling.

As far as Pokernews carving out there own deal, I see this on both sides. Pokernews will be one of the few sites out there still marketing FT, along with probably Cardplayer and a few others. So, for Pokernews, if they carve themselves a unique deal, they stand to make a killing and continue to grow into an even bigger powerhouse. On the other hand, it would be nice to see the G man step up and fight for the industry like his take no shit, bad boy attitude suggests he could. While it would be noble of him and the partners to stand up for the industry, I wouldn't expect that will happen. In the end he is a businessman, and he will take what he can (just my guess).

This is interesting though as this approach FT appears to be taking very much resembles that of Wal-Mart and other big box stores. The local hardware shop will go out of business when the Home Depot moves in, and the number of smaller affiliates will become fewer.

There is hope though, and it really is up to all of us to make this happen. We affiliates really need to come together, stop the infighting and play like a team. Together we can propel Bodog, Stars, and whoever else we choose into even higher levels. We can make our impact & importance known to the rest of the industry, and we should take this opportunity to do this. Together we need to make the decision to drop FT, remove all of our links, do whatever we can to help the sites we promote to pass FT up the mountain. I'm not talking about 'getting revenge' on FT, I'm talking about protecting our industry before we let poker rooms like FT destroy it. We've lost one big room, but we can help to protect our futures by making other rooms know the collective power we hold.

As for FT on PAP, I will personally be insulted if the worlds leading affiliate site continues to offer a room that is hurting our industry. IMO we are eating our young by marketing this room, and we need to play hardball ourselves. 180 days isn't good enough. 365 days isn't good enough. If FT wants to play this way, we need to fight back twice as hard. In the short term we'll make less with FT, in the long run we'll hit higher tiers on other rooms by funneling them into a smaller number of sites. This is obvious, and something everyone who's feeling ambivalent about dropping them should think about.

Phuck Full Tilt Poker, on to bigger and better!

Jess

[hoursurfing]

Originally Posted by Constance

Lets not misrepresent Term 5.3

Quote:
Termination By Us. We may terminate this Agreement, with or without cause, upon thirty (30) days written notice to you.


Thats what makes these Terms and Agreements so absurd. Yes they have the clauses in their TC's but to actually enforce bull shit like this shows nothing more than greed and unethical attitudes. I wonder why they didnt announce this in London.

Further more I wonder how many affiliates are out there that will never know anything ever happened. Not everyone reads the newsletters or visits this forum, even some of the bigger affiliates.

[KrisR]

I just like an explanation from FTP about the logic behind limiting the definition of a real money player to a player that deposits within 60 days. We understand it's an old term that already existed. But please explain why you think it should be enforced now without insulting us with a lame story about the legal department.... You can't be that powerless within your own company that an old term simply has to be enforced now without any recourse from the affiliate team!

What is the business sense behind ignoring industry standards and effectively trying to steal a percentage of players obtained from affiliates?

The fact is that poker is marketed as a game that new players should take time to learn and become comfortable with before playing for real money. It doesn't make any sense at all to try and hurry that process, the fish will just get eaten up and leave...

Most affiliates also have little to no communication with a player once they sign up. Conversion rates really are at the mercy of the poker room's marketing, support and presentation. It is not something we can control, so why does FTP think they should penalise us for players that take longer than 60 days to convert?

Why do they think that a player that takes longer to convert is not worth paying for? If anything I would think that player would be worth MORE as they're most likely going to be a long term revenue generator as they like the site already.

Anyway, I'd just like FTP to cut the bullshit and give us a real reason for deciding to enforce this rule. Then let us make an informed decision about whether to promote you or not. Because at the moment I think most of us just feel like we are being lied to and will no longer promote FTP because of distrust more than anything else. If you change this now, what else are you going to change in the future?

And going forward I suggest we affiliates still let FTP advertise on our sites, but only through paid in advance, expensive and non-guaranteed methods like PPC, impression based campaigns and fixed cost monthly ads. Maybe then they'll realise how good having affiliates do the work for them really is, and they just might treat us with a little more respect in the future.

[TheDonk]

BTW, did anyone else watch Poker After Dark last night? It's 'Cowboy Week' and all the players are wearing cowboy hats. The players are Doyle, Chau Giang, Hoyt Corkins, Andy Bloch, Chris Ferguson, and Gabe 'The OG Cowboy' Kaplan.

Doyle, Chau & Hoyt were wearing DoylesRoom.net sponsored hats, while Andy & Chris wore FT hats. Gabe was sponsored by his great-grandnephew's peewee football team.

Was I the only one who felt sick to my stomach seeing those FT hats? I wanted to jump through the TV and tell them what a bunch of pricks FT is. What's more sickening to me is that Howard Lederer is the President and Chris 'What would Jesus do?' Ferguson is an owner and founder of FT. I used to like both of those guys, now I just think they're evil, greedy people. It figures though that Howard, who has no real business experience would eventually kill the bunny, wasn't it inevitable?

What would Jesus do? He'd screw the peasants!

[TheDonk]

"Anyway, I'd just like FTP to cut the bullshit and give us a real reason for deciding to enforce this rule."

Do you really expect them to come out and say "because we want more money, and decided to steal it from you"?

They have no choice but to lie, and we all know that anything else they say is a lie. No wonder they didn't respond until today, and then with the stupid answer they did. They know they've been busted, but they'll go to their graves swearing it was "legal pressure", "technology issues", "weapons of mass destruction", "evil do-ers", or whatever else they can come up with.

I agree with everything you said though. BTW, why in the world are you guys still an affiliate site? I can't get my mind wrapped around that. Gonna take a long time to generate 20 mil......or wait, is that what this is all about, FT trying to raise some bucks to....?

[Jeremy]

As for FT on PAP, I will personally be insulted if the worlds leading affiliate site continues to offer a room that is hurting our industry.

If you think my loyalty is to a poker site, or $$ over the members of this community, then you don't know me very well. I haven't even talked to FT yet, but these terms are so ridiculous I am not going to have their review or personal forum up here. I have removed both until further notice.

Bottom line is that I really really like Jessica, Warren, and Ellen. But these new terms are a direct slap in the face to all of us. Not one single poker affiliate in the WORLD would say these terms are fair or make any business sense to our partnerships.

I also doubt that my friends in the FT affiliate dept. had anything to do with this. They are great people and have always worked hard for us. My guess is that this decision was pushed down from above from someone who is trying to squeeze more profit, and has no idea how important affiliates are.

I would not blame any of the AM's for this.

In the 3+ years of this forum, this has become the most heated thread in the course of 1 week......that says something. It's not just small PAP members that are going to abandon FT, it's every poker affiliate that is on a MGR or CPA plan including the big guys.

This is an open request for the CEO of Fulltilt to contact me and discuss why this makes NO sense, and also discuss a resolution to this to save your affiliate marketing dept. My email is jeremy@ this site, skype: Jeremy_Enke, or you can call me at 714-421-8957.

Fulltilt has had the the most successful affiliate program in the industry over the last 12 months, and this is the biggest mistake I have ever see made in our industry if it really is enforced.

[TheDonk]

Jeremy, no, no, I wasn't suggesting anything about you. I was just giving my opinion...to you honestly. I was glad to see you mention it in one of your posts, wanted to back you & encourage you on it.

That's all.

Still not TheDean

[PPP]

Originally Posted by Constance

Pokerlistings.com is the model to follow. What they done was for selfish reasons but it helped the industry in general

That is so backwards it is mind boggling. You can thank them for acting in reckless fashion that just encourages the cardrooms to act THE SAME WAY.

Idiots cut off their noses to get back at their faces. Affiliates should not be idiots. People who look at the cardrooms as "enemies" need to grow up. We are just negotiating over financial details that we can both live with (or not).

If Pokernews, or anyone, can negotiate a 180 day or two year clause for themselves, then they should gladly do business. It's just a deal point, just like if they can negotiate higher CPA than most people is.

Originally Posted by Constance

Changing terms which cancels affiliates hard work over the last 4 years is predatory by all definitions.

The didn't change their terms. Five posts so far (as I write this) and you've managed to spread a lot of misinformation. Just like the termination clause, if you don't like it, DON'T PROMOTE THEM. Act like an adult and take resposnibility for your actions.